Cyber Preparation, Not Panic

[01:51] What Hasn’t Happened Is What’s Interesting

Rachael: I’m excited to welcome dorsum to the podcast, Michael Daniel. He’s the president and CEO of the Cyber Threat Alliance. What a dandy time to be coming back on the podcast to talk to united states of america today, Michael. We were just talking, I call back it’south been a year.

Eric: And a niggling bit has inverse in that timeframe.

Michael: Some things have changed, absolutely. Yep, and some things are nevertheless exactly the same.

Rachael: To say the least. One of the things that I’ve been noticing, and we talked a petty bit about this earlier we got on. There’s this sense of ratcheting up, if you will, with the Ukraine conflict and the Biden argument coming out terminal week. And then I had mentioned there was the customs and edge protection bulletin on Usa supply concatenation attacks. You lot had some really interesting perspective that yous were talking nigh in terms of what industry is seeing and what nosotros’re seeing in terms of that big momentous event that has withal to happen.

Michael: Yes, then I would say that in some means what’s been interesting is what hasn’t happened. While, certainly, in that location has been increased cyber activity inside Ukraine, and there’due south been lots of reports of deprival of service attacks. There’s definitely incidents that are happening to Ukrainian companies. The utilise of cyber capabilities to disrupt Ukrainian disquisitional infrastructure broadly at scale has not occurred. Their communication networks are still functioning largely. You still have communications in and out of Ukraine. You lot’re not seeing widespread reports of power outages or things like that.

While certainly private Ukrainian companies, and I think particularly some of their government ministries and their banks and things like that are nether assault, yous have non seen widespread scaled use of cyber to crusade disruption, even in Ukraine.

Cyber Is Not Yet Being Used to Crusade Disruption at the Moment

Michael: And certainly not outside of Ukraine, which a lot of people thought was a very distinct possibility. Now, that doesn’t hateful it won’t happen. We only oasis’t seen information technology yet. Simply I think a lot of people thought it would happen as role of the early stages of this war.

Eric: Michael, why do y’all remember that’south the example? We spoke, I recollect final week Rachel, on my theories, perhaps information technology was two weeks ago.

Michael: Well, I think some of it is that it’s still the case that to accept the exact effect that you desire at the time and place of your choosing. And simply the consequence that y’all desire at the time and place of your choosing, is all the same really difficult in cyberspace. There’s a lot of doubt around, well, if I use this cyber tool, what’south going to happen? Well, nosotros don’t fully know, this is what we think will probably happen, but we’re not sure.

Okay, if I use this missile to accident information technology up, I know what’s going to happen. I think when you’re in a state of war, the military is an inherently bourgeois system for obvious reasons. So you’re going to use the capabilities that are more than tried and truthful. I certainly call back that was function of it. Some of it may have been that they actually idea that they were going to exist able to win more quickly and and so didn’t desire to cause widespread destruction. I mean, there’s a variety of reasons, and it’s probably non one singular reason. It’s probably multiple reasons combined.

Rachael: Yes, that’s a good point though, because whatever is inflicted in the Ukraine, then they inherit that every bit they move in there and try to take cities and whatnot. Information technology affects everyone, not just i group.

Long-Term Trends

Eric: Well, and where they have lost power, a lot of that’south kinetic set on, physical attack on Czech tower. Or in that location’southward a bombing and it happens to hit power lines or something like that. We’ve definitely seen that, but in the kinetic realm more than annihilation.

Rachael: Yes, absolutely. I have so many questions, Michael. I don’t fifty-fifty know where to starting time. Only I mean, I know from an industry perspective though, it seems that everyone’south busy. Rob Lee Dragos was posting and advising folks to get-go getting on a retention and retainer with organizations because things are clearly coming. I mean, the president wouldn’t accept come out and made a argument like that if they weren’t seeing something on the backend. Are we ratcheting upward to this every bit they like to joke or not joke, the cyber apocalyptic moment? Simply what’s going on and why aren’t we seeing more of that externally notwithstanding?

Michael: Well, I recollect that conditions will go along to alter. Certainly, I mean, years ago, a friend of mine in the business, Herb Lin, out at Stanford, he said, “Information technology’s very easy to be a cybersecurity proficient. Just declare that tomorrow volition be worse than today and y’all’ll probably be correct.” There’s some truth to that. These are non things that began with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. These are long-term trends that we’re seeing.

As more than and more businesses have been hit with ransomware, every bit more than and more nation states accept gained capability to conduct offensive operations, cybersecurity issues have just become much more than salient across the lath.

The Ripple Effects of the Russia-Ukraine War

Michael: A lot of this is companies and the demand signal in the market place maxim, “Okay, we’ve got to practice a better job of getting our arms effectually these cybersecurity problems.” For example, you’ve got the SEC floating guidance that is basically saying, you’ve got to do a better task disclosing your risk. We’re no longer going to let you lot exist able to say, I’m paraphrasing here. Simply nosotros’re no longer going to allow y’all say, “We have cyber adventure.” Okay, you got to exercise more to characterize your cyber risk.

Well, if you’re going to actually characterize your cyber risk, you got to have companies like Dragos. You got to have companies like Bitsight or Security Scorecard or others that can aid yous analyze your risk. Then if you’re suffering an incident, you’ve got to be able to answer to information technology. I call up all of these things are really driving an increment in demand for cybersecurity products and services.

Rachael: Yes. I don’t know, I go on getting hung up on the Ukraine. I just think of all the people and what it’s affecting and the impact out of that and what that means in a broader global community.

Michael: Yes. No, we’re going to be seeing the ripple effects of how this war has occurred. Nosotros’re going to be seeing the ripple effects of that in a lot of different dimensions. In cyber security, you’re going to see that besides. There’ll exist lessons that’ll be taken away from what’s happened during the conflict and what does that hateful for companies?

Securing the Digital Footprints Left in Russia

Michael: Even downwardly to security problems, like okay, you lot’re a Western European company and yous had operations in Ukraine or in Russian federation and you close them down. How do you lot secure your digital footprint. Because you probably tin’t get all the stuff, all the equipment out of the country.

Eric: At minimum, yous tin’t get the hard drives back.

Michael: Yes.

Eric: You lot’ve got information there.

Michael: Right. So how do you lot deal with that and what does that practise to your take chances profile? And now, exercise yous demand to include in your incident management plan, what if country X ends up in a conflict? What if these operations end up in a conflict zone, what does that mean? Those are all new areas that I think we’ll see more attention paid to. But the lessons won’t be fully learned for months or years down the road.

Eric: What I think will be interesting is we as American companies and well, really a lot of global corporations have pulled out of Russia. They’ve left infrastructure and capabilities behind. How does the Russian government, how do the Russian people selection upwards from there and continue on? And what do they do with that intellectual property? You can remember of similar a McDonald’south. Can they make burgers and buns and french fries? Can they get the same ingredients? Probably non, but can they leverage the intellectual holding that’due south trapped in Russian federation? If you lot’re a business organization similar an oil, someone who’s drilling for oil?

A manufacturer, can you take design documents and you detect ways to use that, fifty-fifty though the organization left? And how do you protect intellectual belongings? You’re non suing Russia at this point in a court of constabulary.

The Level of Connectivity Before Compared to Now

Michael: Yep. Right. I call up those are all going to be very salient questions. What does this mean for the structure of the internet itself? How, with the Russians working very hard to command their media environment and suppress any sort of existent information from getting out, there could be implications for internet governance. And so at that place’s all sorts of ripple effects that will exist playing out for years. That’south merely plain, there’s the man suffering. People who’ve been killed and the families disrupted and the human being suffering. But there’due south got to exist political and technological and all sorts of other ramifications that become in addition to that human toll.

Rachael: Correct. Very much so. Information technology’s amazing in this twenty-four hour period and age that we tin can come up into these situations where nosotros kind of don’t have a roadmap forward. Every day is a new day and kind of take in the information and kind of make the best decisions that nosotros can. Can yous call back of some other time, I gauge, in recent history where we’ve been in such a place?

Michael: I call up information technology’s hard to compare. Because the interconnected world that we alive in is, that level of connectivity is and so different than what most people dealt with in prior years I think it is very difficult to make comparisons.

Rachael: Yes. There was something I was reading last week. It might have been Herb Lin when we were talking to him last week and I was doing some reading. Simply it was, imagine the Cuban missile crisis in the time of Twitter and misinformation. That’southward but such a critical element right now in terms of how countries present themselves and Russian federation perceives them presenting themselves.

[14:21] Biden’s Statement

Rachael: And similar Biden’s statement, it really kind of puts things in a perspective about how tenuous everything really is, for sure. Biden did make another argument over the weekend. I know that has been much discussed. What’s your perspective on that, in terms of how that could exist perceived?

Eric: Which argument?

Michael: I presume you’re talking well-nigh the, he tin can’t stay in power statement.

Rachael: Right, exactly. When everyone’southward trying to walk a line of being very careful what to say and how it can be perceived. A lot of discussion on that over the weekend.

Michael: Yes. I call up if you look at Biden’southward track tape in this area. I recall, in some ways that came from a very real identify of good grief, Russian people. Even expect at how he delivered it. Wait at what this guy’south doing to you. I don’t think that was so much a signal almost what he intends for the US to try to do.

Simply it was more like an entreatment to the Russian people to say, do you actually want this? Is this how yous desire to be led?

I recall that no matter how you lot play this out, Russia is going to end upwards in a weaker place than it was. And conspicuously, it has not played out the way that the Russian government could accept wanted. I tin can’t imagine that this is the path that they thought this was going to happen. And so I remember that even downwardly the road, and then what does this hateful for, just to connect it back to cybersecurity.

Trust Cannot Be Restored Overnight

Michael: Then you lot had a Russian company that, two of them, in fact that were really quite successful as cybersecurity companies, Kaspersky and Group-IB. Now you have effectively truncated their market pretty significantly.

Eric: Yeah. We’re seeing that on our side where people are like, hey, I’ve got to get off Kaspersky. National governments who were using them. So I agree with yous, Michael.

Michael: Yes. Could they eventually recover from that? Aye, of class. Because things modify, people’due south memories will fade, just that’s not like something that if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, that doesn’t go restored overnight. I think in that location’s all these ramifications that we’ll exist working our way through for a very long fourth dimension.

Eric: I think that trust element is non restored overnight. I recall that takes decades. What business organization person in Europe or the Americas, or even China is going to take a chance going back into Russia in the near term. Knowing that their assets could exist nationalized, knowing that something could go crazy off the rails. They could re-attack Georgia, Republic of kazakhstan, who knows. And all suddenly, your avails are gone again. What was it, BP, I call back. It was trillions of dollars they’re giving up. They had 20% in, I forget the name of the Russian oil company, in investment. That’s real money. You’re not going to take that risk in the near term. That trust to me is broken. And that might be the biggest thing we are seeing here.

Michael: Yes. I retrieve that’due south right.

Eric: Fourth dimension volition tell.

From 11 to 20

Michael: Yeah, that’s right. It’due south one of those, how do yous justify that as a business organization? How practice you lot justify using, peculiarly when the Russian marketplace is non, from a global perspective, it’due south not that huge.

Eric: I heard it was number 11. I was tracking this. It was number 11. It’s projected to be in the twenties now every bit a upshot of the sanctions and corporations pulling out and everybody moving to try to supplement their oil and natural gas from other sources. They’re going to be down in the twenty. Which is going to be horrible for the Russian people.

Michael: Yes, absolutely.
Eric: That’southward the sad part. And then when yous take a country that goes from coming up and increasing your per capita income per head, and now you reverse that trend. That’s non a good situation for the world either. Information technology’s not a adept situation all around.

Michael: No, that’s correct. And I think that’s where I would say, my message to companies and organizations is, do not take your eye off of the potential for cyber threats from Russia. Because equally the reality of that situation sinks in, and as that somewhen begins to have real noticeable furnishings, the temptation to use cyber capabilities to cause disruption elsewhere, I think will increase. And the downside run a risk of it too decreases.

Eric: No 1’s going to prosecute you. Russia has a lot of cyber talent, they have a lot of IT talent. But if the Russian economic system takes a major striking, can y’all become a chore? Where are yous going to work? Do you need to leave?

Article Five

Eric: Simply if y’all stay there, information technology’s probably easier to turn to crime. If y’all tin can’t brand your money in the country, the common sense approach is, I accept to make my money outside of the country. And crime is just flat out one of the options. Which is probably more bonny when you’re trying to feed your family unit.

 I think it’s going to be a real trouble for the world. I think we’re going to accept some challenges at that place. And then Michael, I practice accept a question I’ve been meaning to ask you since I saw you lot were on the docket for today.

I’k going to be very careful here. I’m not going to enquire you lot what you remember, let me inquire y’all how you lot think most the problem. I don’t want to put yous in a tough spot, but you are the Special Assistant to President Obama and the Cybersecurity Coordinator on the National Security Council.

There’s a lot of talk on Commodity 5. I recall President Biden said on Friday in his speech communication in Poland, we volition trigger Commodity Five if Russia steps 1 inch into NATO property. Hither’s the question. Equally a cybersecurity policy expert, how do you call up, and how do you lot propose on what an inch looks like from a cybersecurity perspective?

Since I would say we’re already inched in over the last couple of decades. You’ve been dealing with this for years, so obviously that inch statement doesn’t directly apply to cyber. Just how do you lot call up through that problem? Not where is the red line or annihilation else. I know that’s an impossible answer and it changes all the time, but how exercise you call up through that trouble? How would you lot propose people on that?

[22:14] Where Is the Carmine Line in Cyber Training?

Michael: Yes, then it is a very difficult and challenging question. So of class, Article 5 is actually something that would be invoked past a NATO fellow member. And they would say, we have been attacked in a way that constitutes a utilize of force. That we are calling upon our NATO allies under Commodity Five of the North Atlantic Treaty to come to our common aid and assistance. Then I think what you would accept to be looking at is the furnishings. Do the effects of the cyber activity, can you really draw a connexion to the utilize of force?

Is it an attempt by the Russian authorities to compel using forcefulness? In this case, using cyber capabilities every bit the force. As opposed to kinetic weaponry to impose costs on a NATO fellow member. And that they’re calling upon our assistance to either repel that, stop that, or fifty-fifty to strike back. And I think that’s how you would accept to frame up the issue and look at the state of affairs.

I call back it’s unquestionable though, that in that location are actions that could occur through cyberspace that would warrant triggering Commodity Five. And I remember the bigger challenge will be something that’s more sort of your basic espionage or iffy little denial of service attack. I call back that’southward where the challenge will be. That’s where information technology actually literally becomes a political and policy judgment. I don’t mean that in a pejorative sense. But it literally becomes a judgment call of, does that activeness constitute the use of force and worthy of a response.

NATO Countries’ Cyber Preparation

Eric: I love that respond. I was watching this weekend. I don’t know where I saw it, simply we’re seeing more activity in the Baltics probing on their readiness. Obviously, that’southward probing from a cyber security perspective, simply I love the upshot. That was the perspective I was missing this weekend as I was trying to think through the problem. I think that’s a smashing way to await at information technology and I appreciate that.

I hateful, what is the result of this beliefs? If it’s just probing, is there harm there? Probably non, but I could see some countries saying, hey, this is our ruby-red line. NATO, send the bombers in. I don’t think that’s the way we desire to look at the trouble.

Michael: Yes, no, and I don’t recollect they would get much back up for that either. Now, I call back if a land, if a NATO country, came to u.s.a. and said, hey, nosotros’re concerned nearly this Russian probing activity and we would similar some assistance in trying to figure out, did they get access someplace? Can we find them? Can nosotros shut down their access? Sure. We could provide that sort of aid regardless of whether or non there’due south an Article 5 request.

Then not everything has to go through that procedure. And you could have something far short of invoking Article Five in terms of u.s.a. providing cyber assistance to NATO countries.

Eric: Yeah. Okay. What do you recollect, Rachel? Do you simply want to go dorsum to 2000 and like 17, right?

Rachael: Yeah. Can we talk about NotPetya again?

Eric: It was so much easier in those days, wasn’t it?

Cyber Criminals’ Cyber Training

Rachael: Now it seems and so. Another interesting matter you said before nosotros got on, Michael, is besides this notion of kind of the professionalization of cyber criminals. We talked about the Lapsus Group and the Okta attack and the 16-yr old living in the parent’s business firm. But that’s a very much ‘90s interpretation of cyber criminals and that’s non really the reality at all. I mean, these are very sophisticated business organizations.

Michael: Yeah. And I keep saying that over and over again. Yeah, you get exceptions like this declared Lapsus person. Only the reality is that most of these organizations are highly sophisticated. They’re organizations, they’re multiple people and they’ve specialized. They’ve diversified. At present it’southward a very highly professionalized concern. They accept org charts and process flows and everything else.

My joke is, they’ve read their Adam Smith, they’ve read their Roger Porter. They’ve attended Harvard Business organization School classes online probably to really look at how they run these organizations. And that’s part of what makes them so dangerous. That’s really a big strength multiplier.

When you sort of add together in the cryptocurrency as a fuel, every bit a fashion to move money at scale efficiently, outside of a lot of the fiscal controls that exist in the standard financial markets. And you then accept a state that’southward been providing them safe haven. Largely providing rubber haven. And then you add in our digital dependence. We keep becoming more than and more and more digitally dependent with each passing year. Like suddenly it’due south non a big surprise that we’ve had this explosion in cyber law-breaking and particularly ransomware.

A Serious Economic Threat That Requires Cyber Preparation

Eric: Yep. Rachel, I was mentioning it, but in that location’s a neat report that, remember Marco Figueroa, who was on the podcast? He’s at Alienation Quest right now. His team did a breakdown on Conti based on the leaks that were out there. It’south a slap-up read. Like the org structure, the figureheads, how it runs as a business organisation. They effectively have a CEO, a caput of 60 minutes, which is all about recruiting and keeping their members happy.

And they have a person in accuse of the blogging. They have a grooming lead. They’ve got someone on the CFO finance side who handles blockchain. And then they accept iii teams, ABC, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie. And in the teams, they have developers. They have pen testers. And they have open source intelligent people, OSINT people. They have admins, they have QA people and they accept reverse engineers. They have multiple teams.

You’ve got to encounter the org chart. It’s fascinating the way it replicates a common, modern business based on what they’re doing. And how do they handle disbursement of wages and budgeting. According to LinkedIn, information technology’s a 16-minute read. I think I spent well-nigh an hr on it because it was then fascinating, but that’s based on the Conti leak. It’s a new world, Michael.

Michael: Yes. And I’ve said that this actually drives how we accept to think nigh responding to this. Considering yous can’t continue to treat cyber criminal offense as a sort of economic nuisance. Information technology is at present become a serious economic threat. The amount of coin that’s being tuckered from the legitimate economic system is larger than the GDPs of a off-white number of countries on the planet. It’due south a national security trouble. It’s a public health and prophylactic problem.

[31:06] It Requires Cyber Training to Combat Cyber Offense

Michael: The analogy that we use is this is sort of similar where piracy got to in the 16th and 17th centuries. And it’s posing such a threat that even though a lot of attention is currently focused, rightly, on what’s happening in Ukraine. I retrieve over the side by side 2 years, the attention will come dorsum around to, how do you combat cyber crime effectively.

Information technology’south going to require some really different thinking on the part of governments. We’re going to have to work on some international cooperation and really build the structures to do this internationally. Because it crosses international boundaries.

Eric: So, Michael, I’thou not a seaman personally, but in that location’s a constabulary of the sea. There are international laws on how we handle the sea if you will. I’chiliad trying to retrieve of the words here.

Michael: You enhance a good bespeak, at that place’south treaties. There’southward longstanding international law. There’s custom and habit about how you consider what is territorial waters. What is your right of cocky-defense on the ocean and how do you maintain freedom of navigation. All of these kinds of things that have congenital up over the concluding really thousand years of maritime activity. Peradventure fifty-fifty going dorsum further than that. And and so I recall yous’re going to see like sort of ideas have to emerge in how nations piece of work together in cyberspace.

Eric: Yous practice. Okay. Good.

Michael: But nobody should expect that to happen really quickly.

Eric: Hopefully it’south not a thousand years.

Michael: No, I don’t think information technology’ll exist that long, but it shouldn’t surprise anybody that information technology’s got to take fourth dimension.

Eric: In 10 years.

We Take to Be More Inclusive With Cyber Preparation

Michael: We’re going to have to effort out various things. Yous take some conventions out in that location, like the Budapest Convention on Cyber Offense. But one of the challenges of that was that’s primarily a Western European convention. And the truth of the matter is, we’re going to accept to get beyond Europe and the sort of US, Canada, Commonwealth of australia group. We’re going to have to be more than inclusive in how nosotros develop those conventions.

I remember the Budapest Convention is a very workable convention and I would like to come across its principles and things more than broadly adopted. But the reality is, we may have to brand some adjustments in the interest of inclusivity, in bringing in new voices and new perspectives.

I think that’due south really of import. Considering everybody needs to have a pale in how we develop those agreements and those interactions and those kinds of things. And what is it going to mean to move digital evidence around the world? And can we do that at a speed that everyone actually cares nearly? And then, aye, there’s a lot of challenges in this space.

Eric: That there are. I want to switch and get to a challenging expanse every bit we’re wrapping upwardly here. Shields up. CISA is really big on shields up. I think in u.s.a., one of the things we’re seeing, and from what I gather, in Western Europe also. We’re somewhat on guard.

Businesses are patching, they’re on alert, they’re deploying multifactor authentication. In some cases we’re hunting on networks. What I’grand observing is a lot of organizations are taking the warnings they’re getting out of the governments that stand for them very seriously.

It’due south Time to Raise the Baseline With Cyber Training

Eric: Just how long tin they do that? A pocket-sized xxx person, fifty person company, a law firm may have ane cyber person who’s also their IT person. Are we as vigilant as we’re beingness before nosotros get back to, well, I’ve got a day job and we’ll deal with information technology. What are your thoughts there? I know yous practise so much with the Threat Alliance, how practice you see that going?

Michael: Then, in some ways, this falls into the category of never permit a crisis become to waste matter. Go practise the things that we’ve actually been telling you to do for years. We’re politely sort of saying, none of this is new. None of this advice that we’re telling you lot, oh, this suddenly yous need to have this new capability that nobody’s e’er mentioned to you lot earlier.

Y’all’re right, they tin’t maintain this level of vigilance forever. But I do think that yous can parlay this into proverb, look, information technology’due south fourth dimension to raise your baseline level of cybersecurity and take the steps to make yourself more than secure over the long run. Multifactor authentication is a capability that protects you against nation states. Information technology protects you against, hacktivists. And it protects you against criminals. It serves multiple purposes. So the other advantage of a lot of the things that nosotros’ve been saying to do is they are really effective against a wide variety of cyber threats.

Then the result is that these are good long-term investments to make to raise the level of cyber security in concern. I think if nosotros tin can capitalize on that and make certain that the investments that are happening become baked into the business process, that will actually make everybody ameliorate off beyond the lath.

Businesses Must Be Informed How Experts Are Handling Cyber Preparation

Eric: And are you lot seeing more than correct at present? I know you lot’re big on STIX and TAXII, or the cyber threat alliances, I believe. Are yous seeing more than information sharing and more automatic data sharing? Are you seeing a lot more of that these days?

Michael: Well, nosotros continue to increase the amount of data that’s flowing through our platform. For example, we’re are well due north of 300,000 indicators a day going through our platform now. And then 34 members headquartered in xi dissimilar countries.
I recollect the real question for me is, how exercise we actually take that chat nigh intelligence sharing and really brainstorm to have a much more nuanced discussion almost information technology? Meaning that your average business organization does not need the kind of information that CTA moves. They couldn’t do anything with it if I gave it to them. And that’south okay, because in fact that’due south not their business. I want Flo’southward Flower Store to exist worrying about selling flowers, not trying to worry about cyber security.

Then nosotros need to have a much meliorate agreement of like, look, there’s certain kinds of data that we want the really technically capable organizations to exist sharing in the background. But really, this is the kind of information we demand to be getting out to small businesses on a regular basis. This is the kind of information that the fiscal sector or the healthcare sector needs. And it needs to be much more tailored. The information nosotros ask back from them needs to be very simple for the most office, very uncomplicated and easy to connect.

And we need to do a amend task of connecting all of this to the business side. Similar, how does this affect your business organisation operations?

The Cybersecurity Industry Is Maturing In Cyber Preparation

Michael: How does this affect your ability to deliver your production, your service, whatever it is to your customers. We need to get much more than sophisticated in those discussions, and I can see that happening. This is actually about the cybersecurity manufacture maturing to incorporate more than just the technical aspects of the industry. It grew upward in the technical side, it volition always have its foundations in the technical side appropriately. Just information technology’s now growing beyond that. And that’s a good thing in my view. Because that’s the only way that we’ll actually really be able to get our artillery around this trouble.

Rachael: That’s a really good point. I go on coming back to kind of coming up and going to business school and it seems that there should exist some mandatory cyber courses if you’re getting an MBA or other things. It nearly seems irresponsible non to have some level of awareness and ability in your MBA curriculum, if you’re going to exist starting up or managing a business today.

Eric: Well, it’s a board-level discussion, so you need it.

Michael: Yep. Just like you take to have some facility, you don’t have to be an auditor. But you got to accept some facility with by and large accepted accounting principles. You need to know how to read a balance sheet and know how to read a P and L. And you lot ought to have some bones facility with cyber security. Once more, you should not, in fact, be the skillful. You rent experts, you have experts in your company. Just you lot got to have some basic facility with it. Only like you besides have facility with adventure management and insurance and disaster recovery, all these things that comprehend running a business. Yes, information technology is one more than thing.

[41:23] Experts Must Communicate Cyber Preparation Better

Michael: But I also think that people overthink and overstate the degree of expertise that they actually demand to make decent decisions in this area. And that’s where I recall information technology’s actually incumbent upon the cybersecurity industry to figure out how to communicate better. It’due south not that your clients or customers or whatsoever, they’re not stupid. It’southward that nosotros need to explain information technology better in terms that they tin can sympathise.

Rachael: Agreed. That’s actually kind of exciting though. Y’all retrieve about kids who grew up with iPads and internet and all the things that they can do and how they retrieve about things so differently. Now nosotros have this kind of generation coming up and they’re focused on cyber as part of a fashion of life. I think that could exist really interesting what we see in the next generation or and then. Hopefully in our lifetime of getting alee of this thing potentially.

Michael: Oh yeah. It was actually really cool. My younger son is in uncomplicated school, he’s in fifth grade. I went to their career day at his elementary school. Really I had a fair number of kids come up through and desire to talk to me about cybersecurity. And I don’t call up all of them were completely there voluntarily, merely most of them were. Information technology was great to talk to them. And it was cracking to come across the enthusiasm and the variety of kids who was interested in this topic and fifty-fifty talking. One girl asked me, could an artist be involved in cybersecurity? And I said, absolutely.

We Need Artists

Michael: I was similar, accept yous seen the imagery in cybersecurity? I said, it’s all like dudes in hoodies. In que maps, we need much ameliorate imagery, and so absolutely.

Eric: That’south what we need. We demand the creative person, the musicians, they think differently. I saw it on the malware, the reverse engineering side. Yous demand that creativity.

Rachael: That’s exciting. That’south I think cyber’s cool. If I were a kid over again, I would be so jazzed if you came to my school and were talking nigh cybersecurity.
Thanks for joining us, Michael. It’southward ever and so lovely having you on the podcast and your amazing insights. You’ve been on the forepart lines for and then. It’southward wonderful that we have the opportunity to get your perspective and share that with our listeners. Cheers.

Eric: No kidding. The outcome is the big piece I took out at one of the many big pieces from today. And so looking at like treaties as nosotros did with the laws of the bounding main. I think that’s some amazing insight there.

Michael: Well, cheers very much. I always relish the conversation and never quite know where it’southward going to go, but that’s cracking.

Eric: Hopefully side by side fourth dimension we conversation, we’re still wondering why we didn’t see significant disquisitional infrastructure, cyber action outside of the Ukraine war. And we’re still but wondering, as opposed to dealing with the affect.

Rachael: Well, to all of our listeners, thanks again. Michael, for joining us. Thank you for listening to our podcast every single week. And if you subscribe, for those that aren’t aware, y’all become a fresh episode in your inbox every unmarried calendar week. Or automatically download information technology to your phone, if you lot subscribe to one of the popular podcast services. So until side by side time, everybody, stay rubber.

About Our Guest

Michael Daniel
leads the Cyber Threat Alliance squad and oversees the organization’s operations. Prior to joining the CTA in February 2017, Michael served from June 2012 to Jan 2017 as Special Assistant to President Obama and Cybersecurity Coordinator on the National Security Council Staff. In this office, Michael led the evolution of national cybersecurity strategy and policy. He ensured that the US government effectively partnered with the individual sector, non-governmental organizations, and other nations.